Ep 9: Decisional Bandwidth in the COVID Era

Businesses are defined by the cumulative impact of their decisions - and making good decisions relies on cognitive bandwidth. In this episode, Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes, CoFounder and President of Black Mountain International, brings the CEO perspective as we explore the impact of the COVID environment on business decision making - and why so many of us are so tired! Join us to find out what pennies, playgrounds, Taylor Swift, and Pitbull have to do with business decision making during a pandemic.

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To learn more about Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes and Black Mountain, go to https://www.blackmountainmetals.com/team/ashley-zumwalt/.

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Transcript

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 0:00

Welcome to Right in the Middle Market, a podcast about running, growing and selling your middle market business. On today's episode, we're going to talk about decisions, cognitive bandwidth and why is everyone so tired right now? Welcome to Right in the Middle Market, a podcast about pragmatic perspectives on running, growing and selling your business. We talk about the challenges, decisions, and most importantly, the actions business owners can take to create long term value in their companies. When we evaluate the performance of companies, what we're really assessing is the cumulative impact of their decisions. So what happens when our decisional bandwidth is severely and suddenly curtailed, as it has been throughout a good part of 2020. On today's episode, I'm so excited to be joined by Ashley Zumwalt Forbes, co founder and president of Black Mountain International to talk with me about the impact of the current environment on decisions and decisional bandwidth in business. So I wanted to kick off this concept by talking a little bit about this concept of cognitive bandwidth. But before I do that, I'm going to actually ask my guest today to introduce herself. We're so excited to have Ashley Zumwalt Forbes with us. Ashley, welcome.

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 1:25

Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 1:28

And Ashley just so folks know who you are. Give us just a quick introduction and then we'll go back over and frame the episode a little bit.

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 1:35

Absolutely. So Hey, everybody, I'm Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes, Co-Founder and President of Black Mountain International. We are a private natural resources operating company. And specifically, I'm in charge of all of our international operations. So I started and now run a battery metals mining company in Australia. So for me, battery metals is nickel, class one nickel sulphide specifically, and then a tight gas operation in Australia as well.

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 2:06

Excellent. And for our listeners, Ashley and I met actually in a founder hangout put on by Keio Conference Series that is a great organization if you're not familiar with them. And in that, we were talking about this concept of, you know, I kind of think of it is, why the heck are we all so tired right now? And you hear a lot of people actually, I don't know, I hear a ton of people, I don't know if you hear a lot of people-

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 2:32

Absolutely.

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 2:33

Right, and everybody's talking about they're so tired. I started to think about why. And one of the concepts that I've always thought about personally and professionally, is this concept of cognitive bandwidth and specifically decisional bandwidth. And if you think about this- so for anybody who has read the book, The Power of Habit by Charles duhigg, does a great job of explaining this. And he talks about, that for each of us, there's only so many things, we only have so much cognitive bandwidth in the day, we only have so many, I think of it as if I had 100 pennies that I could spend across the day of decisions to make and things to think about and places that I can spend my willpower, which are all different aspects of what he talks about in his book. But, this is a reason that habits become so important because if we have to make every single decision about, do I tie my right shoe or my left shoe first, every single day, we'd be exhausted before we ever got out of the door. So now let's look at what happened in the COVID environment. And all of a sudden, all of those habits actually did go out the door- okay, maybe not all of them, maybe you could still tie your shoes in the same order. But the way that we make decisions, our routines, our habits, think about all of the things that changed, they changed personally, they changed professionally and so our ability to lean on those habits that most of us have developed over years and years, all of a sudden went out the window. At the same time, that we have less bandwidth to be making big decision, there are so many big decisions to be made. Certainly professionally, but personally as well. And by the way, we don't have separate buckets for personal and professional, I wish that I got 100 pennies of personal and 100 pennies of professional but it doesn't work that way. And so this is where to me, I really got intrigued with this idea of thinking about cognitive bandwidth, the ability to make decisions, which is so critical for business and in this kind of an environment. And so the goal today is to help people use this framework to think about decision making, cognitive bandwidth and as always, because we always strive for pragmatic tips, here at Right in the Middle Market. And so we'll talk about some pragmatic things that you can do. So, first of all, Ashley, I was so excited to have you join me for this conversation. Because I think in the executive forum that I mentioned earlier, we were having a great conversation about this with a group of women CEOs, and you just were so articulate, but I'd love to start with, are you seeing this? Am I out on a limb? Or what are you seeing in this?

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 5:24

So you are definitely not alone in this and something that has given me a lot of comfort through this entire COVID period is that no one of us individually is alone in this dynamic. You know, this is certainly a once in a generation event that no one could have foreseen coming. And so, I think it is up to all of us to really just be patient with ourselves and be patient with our organizations, because we're all individually completely stressed out and so because we live in a society where we're all used to having so much data and so much information available at our fingertips. And all of a sudden, we're all personally and professionally, just thrown into this environment where no one knows what's happening. You know, this isn't a situation that we've encountered before. We don't know what the following effects are going to be. We don't know how long this is going to last, it's just completely out of the ordinary. And so because we're not operating in that data, heavy information, heavy world anymore. You know, what I found is, we really just have to parse apart our decisions into much smaller timeframes, such that, a) we preserve sanity, but b) we also provide flexibility for ourselves in our organizations, depending on what happens in the future.

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 6:59

There's two things that you said that I want to pick up on, because I think they're really important. I think one is that, really thinking about the decisions that you're making and you've talked before about changing the timeframe of the decision that you're making. And my partner in business and my usual co host, Mark, and I talk a lot about preserving optionality for businesses. Right? So thinking about, how do you parse apart some of those decisions so that you're making decisions that you have to make, but that you're still preserving options.

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 7:37

Absolutely. So I actually think that's the perfect framing for the Corona time period. We'd need to preserve optionality. And so you know, really, the reasoning behind that is, we don't know exactly what the next six months what the next 12 months holds for us. And we really don't know when the economy is going to start to rebound and exactly what that's going to look like. And so, you know, from my perspective, really what I've been focused on, is stabilizing and focusing on my team. So, my entire kind of leadership theory and mantra all revolves around having incredibly capable people, and ensuring that they're empowered to making decisions and being successful. In this scenario, everything kind of flies out the window and as a leader, you're very much in just control and you know, make sure everything is staying on the tracks. And I would love to meet someone who is really feeling like they are comfortable with what's going to be happening in the next year, year and a half. But for right now, I'm just focusing on ensuring that my team is happy, healthy, and we're preserving that capability to be nimble in the future.

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 9:03

So Mackenzie, I admitted to Ashley as we were preparing for this that I had a lot of fun actually geeking out on this topic, in preparing for today's discussion, and McKinsey put out a great article in March of this year, which seems like a lifetime ago, but I

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 9:18

That was a lifetime ago!

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 9:21

Right. And it was interesting is that they put it out at the end of March, and it was titled decision making and uncertain times. And I think it's interesting when we now realize what we didn't know in March, right? We had no idea, we thought, Gosh, maybe this is just a shutdown for a few weeks, little did we know. But it was interesting because they laid out five things that leaders can do to make good decisions. And one of them, actually, you hit on a couple of them. Right. See. Exactly, you're brilliant, clearly. One of them is that they talked about was making the critical small choices, and to be thoughtful about, Look you can't entirely separate the tactical and the strategic, we don't know what's happening, but to be thoughtful about where can I make small choices that are going to serve me well down the road. And another one that they talked about was this idea of involving more people. Whereas, you know, a CEO before because you're used to, you know how to make these decisions, right? We know what decisions that we're making. So, you kind of know, alright, this person makes this one, I make these decisions, but now because things are uncertain, and because we all are challenged by limited bandwidth, how do you involve more people so that you have the benefit of those different perspectives?

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 10:37

So I really like that framing as well. What I found is, because there's so much uncertainty in the world right now, there's a fair bit of fear that people are carrying around with them, they're fearing for their health, they're fearing for their families. The last thing you want people worried about is fearing for their financial stability and kind of the health of a company. And so, for me, information is very much power, and specifically that key information that goes to making those decisions, those critical decisions. And so just as you said, the more you kind of open up the tent and give folks that information and that view on the runway, the more they'll feel comfortable with, with what's happening at work in the more buy in, that they'll have, and in terms of, you know, really getting us through this period of instability. So I think that's right and I think it is all about being open, and not really being secretive and holding back information, because folks can sense that, you know, they know when you're just giving them face and smiling but doing something else behind closed doors. And so, really I think just be a transparent, open and collaborative as you can. And just be honest with your team, you know, we're all adults, we're all working in the same direction. And nobody has the 100% answer, definitely including me. I do not have the answer here, but I just do the best I can to eliminate those kind of negative feelings and that feeling of uncertainty, even when nobody has the right information.

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 12:28

So one of the things that I think is tough is, because I do think that there's transparency, and you talk about the fear, which is almost palpable, right? And when you think about all of us have been brought back down in some ways to that very lowest level of the Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, right? We're back to thinking about survival. We're thinking about basic needs, what's happening with my health, with the health of my family, the health of my team? And so that transparency, but I think for some leaders who, they're looking at their company and realizing that the viability of their company is being threatened, how do you balance between that transparency and wanting to be open and honest, wanting to recognize that we're all in this together and at the same time, wanting to bolster your team and saying, gosh, if they actually had any idea and feeling that they need to bear that burden alone? What's your thoughts on that? What would you say to a leader who's struggling with how do I balance being transparent and recognizing that there are some really tough potential realities ahead?

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 13:37

Absolutely. I think number one rule is don't lie. So do not lie to your team. Folks know that it is not a rosy business environment out there. I'm in resources and half of those resources are oil and gas and not sure if all the listeners have been following the oil markets over the last few months, but oil actually went negative for a period of time, which is something that's never happened. We never could have foreseen and nobody makes money at negative oil prices. So, I think, no one is naive enough to believe that everything is 100% great all the time. What I would say is, as a leader, make sure that you're giving that kind of short term action plan, and ensuring that everyone knows what those near term decision points and junctures are, such that they can do their best to work towards those junctures. If you don't know what happens after that juncture point or after that decision point, that's okay. I would tell them. I would honestly, I would be open about, you know, really how folks can chip in and really start adding to the bottom line and making sure the health of the company stays. What I wouldn't do is lie to people to make them feel better. Because I think if that very unfortunate kind of doomsday circumstance comes, and you blindside people, you're just gonna lose their trust completely. And as a business person, that's what gives business people a bad rap is, you know, not telling the truth and getting people offside and ruining their trust. So certainly, you know, be as honest as you can, and give a bit of a roadmap, at least as much of a roadmap as you know, and it's okay if it's short.

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 15:37

On that note, we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. Right in the Middle Market is brought to you by SLS Capital Advisors. SLS Capital Advisors is a boutique financial advisory firm working directly with middle market leadership to tackle critical growth opportunities, including exit mergers and acquisitions and access to capital. The principles of SLS Capital Advisors bring deep into Financial and consulting experience to firms seeking tailored strategic opportunities, including capital for major growth initiatives and alternatives for those evaluating corporate transitions and exits. SLS Capital Advisors services include managing effective exits and sales processes, involving sophisticated buyers such as strategic purchasers, financial buyers and operator to operator transactions and raising capital to fund our clients growth including debt and equity elements. They also assist companies in capturing growth opportunities through focused and effective organic growth and M&A programs and unlocking profit potential through business portfolio rationalization and divestiture. SLS Capital Advisors, focused on delivering consultative executions for clients seeking strategic growth and capital. Find us at SLSCapitalAdvisors.com to learn more about how we can help you. Welcome back. We are here with Ashley Zumwalt Forbes and having a conversation thinking about cognitive bandwidth and decision making and how that comes together in this particular time of COVID crisis. So I want to come back to, again, I keep thinking about these two sides of the decisions that we're making, and how do we make good decisions. And part of that is this concept of cognitive bandwidth. And it's really interesting, there's a there's a great book called Scarcity, by Sendhil Mullainathan and Eldar Shafir, who- one of my favorite quotes, they say, "Attacks on bandwidth, makes it harder to control our impulses." They talk a lot about scarcity. They talk about scarcity in it, you know, it might be in money, it might be in food, it might be in attention, it might be in- scarcity of all kinds of different things, but it actually lowers our effective cognitive capacity. And so again, to go back to what we were talking about before, when you think about everything, in COVID, where there's real scarcity, right? There's real threats to time, money, knowledge, information. So how does that come together? And we know that it impacts our cognitive capacity. So I think about this in terms of both how do you break apart decisions, right? If we ever needed to rely on good processes for decision making, this is it. And at the same time, how do we recognize that we do have increased tax on our cognitive capacity? And so how do we think about increasing our cognitive capacity?

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 18:47

So what's kind of been my mantra through all of this, is "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good." I think so often, particularly when we do have, you know a larger runway and more information we're all so focused organizationally on the exact right answer. And we have that cognitive ability and that bandwidth to dedicate our time and energy to getting to that nth degree of perfect decision. Right now, we don't have that ability. And so it really goes back to you know, stabilizing in the near term and ensuring your team feels bought in and supported. But in this specific time period, focus on the good, focus on making good decisions and getting yourself down the road. But don't worry about really honing it and perfecting it to that nth degree, because you're just going to drive yourself crazy.

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 19:53

I think it's also been really interesting to think about decisional biases and, it's interesting, I was talking to a good friend of mine the other day, and she was articulating a major life choice that she has to make and after I listened to her for a while, I finally realized she had tied two decisions together, that actually were limiting her ability to think about them independently. And as I helped her reflect and we broke those decisions apart. Actually, if you take them as separate decisions, you can find solutions for each of them. And so I think it's one where, we can fall into that all or nothing thinking, we can fall into some of those kinds of heuristic biases that can really limit our ability to find good solutions. And I think this is also where being able to think about, how do I talk with other people, how do I you know, as you're saying, be honest with my team, because you need to be able to open up, you need to be able to look at things from different perspectives to say, Where have I limited my own thinking? And I'm not able to see some of the options that may be there because I've got my heads down and thinking about survival.

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 21:07

So I think you hit the nail on the head with, you know, because you and your friend walked through this decision process together and your friend brought in those fresh eyes, that you were able to identify like, "Hey, there are actually two separate decisions here. Let's parse this apart, and let's talk about it." So if there was ever a time to rely on your mentors and rely on your support network, and, you know, just pull out all the stops, now is the time. And so, I think really, it just goes back to bringing folks inside the tent and ensuring that you're making as good of decisions as you can, but I like what you said around you and your friend getting together and really trying to brainstorm, what is the answer here.

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 22:00

Yeah, and I'm also a big fan of, of naming it. Right of naming- and again, I think this is for me part of where it became so important to identify that there actually is research around this cognitive bandwidth tax, when we can't rely on our habits and I may have shared the story with with you before Ashley, but I'll share it for our listeners, that I was at the beach with, we're fortunate enough to have a beach not far from our house and having a socially distant appropriate playdate for my daughter and with a friend of hers and her mom, and the girls ran up to us and asked if they could go over to the playground, that's just, you know, right there on the beach. And the other mom and I looked at each other and in normal times, quote, normal times, right? This would have been a no brainer."Of course. Go over. Have fun!" And later I thought about, what were actually the mental calculus that I went through, you know, first it was, well, the playgrounds in our town were shut down, but let's see here, yes, as of last Friday, that was changed- Okay, so the rules now are that they're allowed to go. The second, now let's see here, what's the latest research that I've been reading around whether they can catch COVID from, you know, from solid surfaces like playgrounds, is that, lets see, what was that related study that I read? Is that pro or con, were there risks of that? Do I have the hand sanitizer? Should I tell them they can go but send hand sanitizer with them? Are they going to be more likely to get too close to other kids? How many other kids are on that? Right? And, I mean, this list went on and on. And then on top of it, I had to look over and look at the other mom who's doing the same mental calculus. And because I only need to decide what I'm comfortable with for my daughter, but what is she comfortable with for her daughter, and in the end, we just looked at the girls and said, "Just stay on the beach."

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 24:05

Stay right here, girls, and that's okay. We just need to have grace with ourselves. And, you know, just take a deep breath and realize that you're not in this alone. And what you're doing is actually perfectly natural and perfectly normal. We're all exhausted. 2020 has been a terrible year. I would challenge you to find someone who thinks 2020 has been a good year. And so you know, I think your beach example is perfect.

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 24:35

I love that phrase of yours, "To have grace with with ourselves." Because when I think about again, if I keep going back to these two things of, how do we employ good decision processes, but how do we increase our cognitive bandwidth? I think having grace with ourselves is a really important way to do that. And so tell me more about that. Do you find that having grace with yourself as a way, does it increase your cognitive bandwidth?

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 25:00

Absolutely. And you know, it really ties in to everything I've said here today around, not letting perfect be the enemy of good and really try to be as transparent with your team as you can with limited information. And so, I think you just need to realize that we are going through an unprecedented situation, and stressing yourself out about not being able to be 100% perfect in every aspect of your life is only going to make it even harder. So, you know, right now, there are so many different aspects. We're just trying to keep ourselves and our families alive. So, it's okay, if you're not working out every day. It's okay if sometimes you order pizza for dinner. Now is the time if ever to just be really gentle on yourself and realize that you're human.

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 25:54

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think I'm gonna go back to something else from the Power of Habit, by Charles Duhigg, and one of the things that he identified is when you think about willpower, right? So willpower, again, it's kind of that hundred pennies that we have to make good decisions. And one of the things that he talked about is that when people feel that they don't have control over their environment, when they feel that they don't have autonomy, that their willpower muscles get tired, much faster. And I started to think about that and I was like, right now, I don't know about you, I don't feel like I have control over anything. And it's not entirely true- but the number of things that we have no control over. And so I was like, Alright, if I think of it in that context, well then no wonder I'm so tired, right? And it becomes so challenging to make those good decisions and to start to think about how do I do that. What else are you seeing in your team? How are you supporting your team in trying to increase their cognitive bandwidth?

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 26:56

So you know, I touched on it in the beginning that I do support international operations. And so most of my team is actually in Perth, Australia, which is 13 hours ahead of Fort Worth, Texas, where I live. So pre Coronavirus, I spent kind of between 50 and 75% of my time in Perth. I'm very much a hands on person, very much a face to face person. And all of that has blown out the window. So, you know, I physically cannot get into the country because there's a hard border in place to Australia and likely will continue to be through mid 2021. And so really what I've been focused on, particularly during the work from home period, because initially we shot our offices in both Fort Worth and Perth. And so everyone was, scattered to the wind, all working from their different houses. And I focused on having one on ones with every single member of my team. Not just People who work directly for me, because I really wanted to make sure that everyone knew that that channel continued to be open, even though you know, they wouldn't see me in the office or they wouldn't see anyone in the office in fact. Really just making sure that I am checking in for that, that temperature check and keeping that line of communication open. I'm very much, you can probably tell, by the way, I'm speaking, but I'm very much a pep talk person, I'm very high energy. I love my team. I have the absolute most capable team in the world. And so I view my job as just removing roadblocks for them, and ensuring that you know, they're bought into our mission, into our overall success. And so for me, it's been just that so, every week I would have one on one conversations with every single person in Perth. Did that mean I was up until 1, 2am every night, it did. But it also really just made me feel connected. It helps me too, you know, it made me feel connected to what was happening in`country and what folks were going through. And also just made sure that I knew where I could plug in and remove those roadblocks. Whether it's something personal for them or something professional.

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 29:20

Well, I think it goes back to something that you've said a couple of times, which is just trying to reiterate, that we're not in this alone. When we shut down, I always go back to- I always think about Bren Brown's, one of her core tenants is that "We're wired for connection." I think that's one of the things that's so hard right now is that, if you think about other times when there have been difficult things going on in the world, what do we usually tell people to do to help themselves feel better? Get together with a friend, reach out, go to your place of worship, get out and go do things with people. What is it right now that we're told to not do? Don't go out and be with people. And so to figure out, how do you have that same connection, and I think it's, you know, it's gotten a little bit easier as we started to say, okay, there are some safe ways to be able to connect, but how do you replicate that? And how do you replicate that opportunity for team, when you really come together?

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 30:27

So, I mean, unfortunately, I think the answer is, you don't 100% replicate it. For me and for us, we're doing the best we can. I'm having these one on ones with the team. We have full team Zoom conferences, and, you know, trying to make sure that we still have that good team dynamic, while not over killing it. People still need to do their jobs, they don't need to be sitting on Zoom 10 hours a day or something insane, but I don't know that you 100% replicate that great community feeling and, and really having that buy in, when you are all scattered to the wind, and particularly all around the world. And we're doing the best we can to keep those connections. But just understanding this is a temporary time.

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 31:20

Well I think part of it, that for many of us extroverts in particular,

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 31:25

Guilty.

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 31:27

I am officially an ambivert. Truly, I am an interesting mix between an introvert and an extrovert, but that's a topic for another time. But I do get energy from being in the workplace being around other people. And so if you think about, how were you used to refilling your energy? I'm guessing that for you, for a lot of people, it was, being in the office being around your team, that energy that comes from those physical interactions, and I think that's a really important point that you bring up which is to say, No actually, we can't replicate that, not entirely. And so to start to think about, what are some of the other ways that, to be more deliberate to say, So I'm going to have to do something different to refill my own energy. I was thinking this morning about the importance of anthems right that I'll go through phases where I'll have a song that just really speaks to me.

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 32:23

Yes, yes, that's perfect.

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 32:25

Yep. Okay, what what's your song right now? Do you have a song right now?

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 32:28

Oh, man. So I am obsessed with Taylor Swift. I've mean, like to probably an unhealthy degree. But, of course, her new Folklore album, I'd say I have always loved all of her kind of feminist anthems, so my prior anthem was always, The Man, I really resonate with that song. But now I love, same theme but, I love Mad Woman and I also love The Last Great American Dynasty. I think they tell really interesting stories about very strong women and who have gone out and kind of done their own thing and not worried what other people thought of them. And so those are my current anthems. They are generally Taylor Swift themed and so I'm really sticking on brand. What's, what's your anthem right now?

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 33:18

So, this is an artist I will admit I had never listened to. And for those who know my musical tastes, this is completely out of character, but it has absolutely captured me right now. And it came out of actually an episode I listened to of the podcast, What it Takes, which if you haven't listened to that, it's amazing. It's put on by the Academy of Achievement. And they did an interview with Pitbull. And he put out a new song called I Believe. And it is powerful. And it is "I believe that we will win." And it is inspiring, and encouraging and he talks about something that, he says,"What spreads faster than a virus, is fear, but I think we can win."

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 34:09

Oh, that's beautiful. And hey, I like Pitbull, so no shame. No shame there. I totally get it. But those are great. I'm an I'm a lyrics girl. So that's fantastic.

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 34:19

All right, so so we've got Pitbull, we've got Taylor Swift, but I think all of this goes to and I was thinking about it this morning. I was like, this is where music becomes important to say I can't get my energy rebuilt- supporting that cognitive bandwidth and the way that I typically did, so what do I do instead? And you know, so I've decided right now every morning, man I'm listening to Pitbull.

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 34:44

You got to do what you got to do. You know nothing like Pitbull, so I get it.

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 34:51

Okay, now on here on Right in the Middle Market, we are all about pragmatic tips for middle market businesses. So, we want to end and I think we're gonna do two each because there have been so many good things out of this. So why don't you start two actions that business owners can take today?

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 35:12

Okay, so first action on Monday, write down two things that you want to accomplish out of that week, just two things. And if you accomplish those two things, you have knocked it out of the park. So on Monday, you write them down, you stick them on your computer monitor, and if nothing else happens, you still feel like that week was a 10 out of 10. And it's secondly, I'd say, particularly for all those working parents out there who my heart goes out to you, you're trying to educate your kids and work and do a million things. Take five minutes a day, and just do nothing. Stare at the wall, call it meditation, call it whatever you want to call it, but take those five minutes and be silent and not think about what's happening in the world and not think about what's happening personally, professionally, what have you. Those are your five minutes, and you just lock yourself in your closet if you have to, to get some alone time, but you need it just to center yourself and maintain some sanity.

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 36:16

I love it. And my two I think are in a very similar vein. So consistent with what we've been talking about today, I've got one related to decisions and one related to bandwidth. So my first action, is simplify your decisions. And I'm going to say specifically, look for one decision you can stop making. So just to give an example, I've realized my schedule, the time I go to bed, the time I get up has been thrown completely out of whack these last couple of months, and I decided recently, I'm going to stop deciding what time I'm getting up every morning. I'm going to start to be consistent. I'm getting up at the same time. And so just what is it decision that you can stop making and that will free up just a little bit of bandwidth. But if you do it a little bit at a time, that will help you. And then the second thing, I think very consistent with your second one is to deliberately think about how you're recharging. Give yourselves 10 minutes a day, I was going for 10 you went` for five, I was going for 10. But think about what could you do? What's one thing you could do for 10 minutes a day, that would help recharge your energy, whether it's listening to a song meditating, going for a walk. And it's I saw this quote from Arianna Huffington the other day- actually today on LinkedIn. And she said, as we enter the next normal, we must update our view of the human operating system. We can remind ourselves that downtime is a feature, not a bug. I thought that was a powerful quote.

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 37:44

I love that. In a society that's so focused on 100% productivity, we do need to be okay with just sitting on the couch sometimes that is a human need. I love that way to go Arianna Huffington. Good job.

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 38:00

Isn't that great? And on that note, Ashley, thank you for joining us. This has been a fabulous conversation. I've loved talking to you about this and I hope we'll have a chance to do it again.

Ashley Zumwalt-Forbes: 38:09

Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin: 38:11

I'm Stephanie Chambliss Gaffin and you've been listening to Right in the Middle Market, a podcast about running, growing and selling your middle market business. We'd love to hear your comments about today's episode or ideas for what you'd like to most hear about in the future. Send me a message on LinkedIn or drop me a line at podcast@gaffingroup.com and don't forget to subscribe to hear more pragmatic tips. Until next time, be well and be decisive.